• Source: Facebook
  • Top Mormon Leader: There Are No Gays In The Church (Video)

    'We Do Not Discriminate and We Are Not Bigots,' Member of Mormon Church's Quorum of Twelve Apostles Says

    David A. Bednar says there are no gay people in the Mormon Church because, essentially, there are no gay people. The youngest Elder to be named to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Bednar is a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. 

    Speaking in Chile last week, Bednar was asked, “How can homosexual members of the church live and remain steadfast in the gospel?”

    Bednar, a former president of Brigham Young University–Idaho, replied, “I want to change the question,” as Raw Story's David Edwards first reported.

    He then explained his theory, one held by the Church and many other anti-gay groups, that no one is actually born homosexual (or bisexual, for that matter) but rather, God gives people challenges they are to overcome, homosexuality being one of them.

    “There are no homosexual members of the church. We are not defined by sexual attraction,” Bednar, who is 63, insisted. “We are not defined by sexual behavior. We are sons and daughters of God. And all of us have different challenges in the flesh.”

    He also posited the theory that homosexual love is only a sin if it is expressed sexually.

    RELATED: 1830 Mormons In Salt Lake City Quit LDS Church Over New Anti-Gay Policies

    “Simply being attracted to someone of the same gender is not a sin,” Bednar continued. “There are many members of the church who may have some manifestation of that attraction. They honor their covenants, the keep the commandments, they are worthy, they can receive the blessings of the temple and they can serve in the church.”

    “It is when we act on the inclination or the attraction, that’s when it becomes a sin,” the elder continued. “We do not discriminate and we are not bigots. We extend Christ-like love to all sons and daughters of God.”

    Bednar's stunning comments come just a few short months after the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles announced that Mormons who are in same-sex relationships, even legally marriages, are to be considered "apostates," subject to ex-communication, and their children cannot be baptized, or become members of the LDS church until they turn 18 and denounce their parents.

    As a result, the suicide rate according to at least one Mormon group, has skyrocketed among Mormons aged 14-20. Last month Mama Dragons said there had been 32 suicides of young LGBT Mormons as a result of the Church decree.

    One week before Bednar's comments, Elder Dallin Oaks claimed that responsibiity for the suicides could only be answered by "a higher authority" on "judgment day." 

     

    EARLIER:

    Top Mormon Leader Says Only God Can Judge Him For Gay Suicide Crisis Caused By LDS Church

    32 LGBT Mormons Aged 14-20 Have Committed Suicide in Wake of New Anti-Gay Policy, Group Says

    Amid Mass Resignations, Mormon Leaders Try, Fail To Soften New Rule On Children Of Same-Sex Parents

     

    Image: Screenshot via Facebook

    Get weekly news & updates
    Subscribe
    Support our work DONATE



    Register to VOTE

    Showing 49 comments

    Please check your e-mail for a link to activate your account.

    • commented 2016-06-16 05:41:41 -0400
      The Church has no Heterosexuals either.

      The Church’s prophet has said in an official Church publication ‘New Horizons in Homosexuality’ (http://www.connellodonovan.com… “Perversion is forgivable” “It is curable” “Satan tells his victims that it is a natural way of life: that it is normal; that perverts are a different kind of people born ‘that way’ and they cannot change. This is a base lie.” “Even if your partner in sin should be a psychiatrist, a medical man, a psychologist and if he teaches that these immoralities are harmless, he is either deceived or a vicious deceiver. Shun him”.

      In another official Church publication ‘To The One’ (https://ia800404.us.archive.or… it says “Read enough about it and you’ll think you’ve got it” and “Some so-called experts, and many of those who have yielded to this practice, teach that it is congenital and incurable and that one just has to just learn to live with it. They can point to a history of very little success in trying to put whatever mechanism that causes this back into proper adjustment. They have, to support them, some very convincing evidence. Much of the so-called scientific literature concludes that there really is not much that that can be done about it. I reject that conclusion out of hand.” “If someone is heavily involved in perversion, it becomes very important to him to believe that it is incurable”.

      :-(

    • commented 2016-03-04 10:35:16 -0500
      Being gay is NOT a condition, choice, or sickness. It is an innate feeling we have, and can not control who we’re attracted too. We are not sick, so there’s no need for a cure. Religion tells you are sick, then they try and sell you the cure. Does this sound like a loving religion? Hell NO! So why is it that this mormon dares to come here and preach as though he knows the minds of people who’re attracted to the same sex, since he denies his own, repressing his sexuality and telling everyone how sick they are, and that they can change from being gay to straight. This man that he speaks of, saying he was gay, but turned his life around after he had spoken with him, then taking credit for this bisexual man marrying a woman. We are NOT sick, there is no cure, and the only possible way for us to live, is to accept who we are and be happy about it, instead of lying to oneself and repressing what their true sexuality tells them. We didn’t ask for him to come here and tell us how sick we are, and that there is a cure, as long as you believe there is one. I would much rather go through life being truthful about myself, than to lie to make others feel more comfortable. This person states that he has healed those with maladies through prayer and preaching. That is a lie, no matter what you believe, it was more than likely science that had a hand at healing them of their affliction, but being LGBT is not an affliction, it’s a natural, did you get that?, NATURAL variation of our sexuality’s. Also, for the mormon who keeps telling us HIS facts, are nothing but fantasy to those of us in the real world. Also, NO ONE chooses to be gay, you don’t make a choice in whom you are romantically and physically attracted. Again, that is innate, and cannot be changed not matter how hard one tries, they can only suppress their natural desires. That is a fact with anyone who had no choice in their sexuality, and I can most certainly guarantee, there are gay people in the mormon church. The mormon church is the cause of so many suicides due to their stance on being gay. They have plenty of blood on their hands.

    • commented 2016-03-02 20:30:58 -0500
      Their versions of their own history are not at all the real history.

    • commented 2016-03-02 20:29:21 -0500
      Eveyone, please do some serious research on the Mormons. Once you’re familiar with the facts of the Mormon Church, it’s founders and leaders, and it’s dogma, agendas (both it’s public and real secret agendas — often not the same), you will never give them any credence whatsoever. It’s a den of greedy thieves and liars.

    • commented 2016-03-02 20:20:01 -0500
      You’re right about one thing, you lying Mormon apologist. I hate all you Nazis, as everyone with any real integrity and legitimate morality should. And you are very real Nazis.

    • commented 2016-03-02 19:10:14 -0500
      Stuart,

      Desperation from having no additional meaningful substance to contribute usually leads to attacking the person’s character directly.

      This is your way of saying you are out of ammo.

      Also, I happen to be semi-retired self-employed software engineer and in between contracts right now so I have the time. And, miraculously, I somehow also have the patience to try and have a meaningful conversation here.

      Also, just so I can assure you that I am not a paid missionary of some kind… I also have several grievances with how things are being done in the church these days and one of them you hit on very pointedly.

      There is indeed a trend where Mormon members are transitioning from being staunch individual agents who will make no man into an idol no matter his station into being more of what you could call corporate minions who are now more like employees than the sovereign sons and daughters of God that it is supposed to foster. Some of your criticisms are indeed well placed.

      Unfortunately, because you go over the top and make it clear you are bitter and have an axe to grind, you actually do injury to the likelihood people will sincerely consider the truths you possess.

    • commented 2016-03-02 18:01:48 -0500
      Do all you know that the Mormon Church, with it’s vast sums of money allocated specifically for propaganda purposes, actually hires employees to troll the internet to push pro-Mormon propaganda and attack Mormon critics? They also create and assign unpaid official church “callings” for Mormons to be trolls on the internet. And, of course, they have oodles more of brainwashed useful idiots who gladly troll on their own. Jason Wharton is truly an internet troll. Where does he get the time to do nothing but post this bullshit all day long? Never believe a Mormon, ever. They are always either regurgitating what them been told, or they’re outright lying. The Mormon leaders lie, even to their own members. And lying is perfectly okay if it “furthers the work of the Church”, which is simple greed-based world domination and control, and for them these ends always justify any means.. f you want the factual truth about Mormonism, you have to go outside their lying and grossly distorting Mormon Church leader “approved” sources. Don’t be fooled by these con men.

    • commented 2016-03-02 17:58:55 -0500
      Clearly, I enjoy my share of fiction…both reading and writing. EVERYTHING you think and feel, your heart, your dreams, your goals, your so called ‘spirituality’ is a within that gray matter we call a brain. Nothing existential, nothing supernatural outside of your brain matter. You connect the dot’s within your thoughts to create a reality of sorts…even if it may be filled with fiction, and partial knowledge. We are an amazing species. The awe, beauty, love, companionship, compassion, the strength and joys all are obtainable without fiction. I live it, and I testify to that fact. I was once VERY religious, and thankfully, I have escaped it’s fallacy, and living a good life, free of a god….or the illusion of the need of one. That you feel someone NEEDS fiction, illusion, to be happy, complete, or fulfilled in life….is sad actually, but not at all rare. (unfortunately) I don’t care WHAT you make up in between your ears, just don’t let it effect MY life, and the lives of others. Good luck on your future planet…maybe we’ll bump into each other out there! lol! (not)

    • commented 2016-03-02 17:48:10 -0500
      Ally said:
      “Show me tangible, repeatable evidence…and I will BELIEVE!

      But no, that is not possible. I ‘feel’, therefore it is. That is an insult to our species…as religious cults continue to propagate. I’ll be waiting. crickets chirping. ‘Spiritual Realities’ is an oxymoron in it’s entirety."

      You are welcome to go throughout your life leaving that part of your humanity undeveloped. I don’t feel any inclination to try and prove something to someone who is utterly unwilling to open the eyes of their understanding.

      Also, the priesthood power isn’t something I have direct control over. When I am asked as an Elder to administer a blessing to someone who is ill, this doesn’t mean I can just say anything I please and then the universe is just going to make it happen because I am so special, so to speak.

      So, these things cannot be subjected to the scientific method where you have completely controlled parameters and you are isolating totally repeatable results.

      Therefore, just because I have had the experience of healing people of various maladies through a priesthood blessing doesn’t mean I could go and grab someone who is ill and grab you and say: “Ok, now I am going to heal this person to prove to you that the priesthood power is real.”

      What would most likely happen if I tried this is I would pollute the waters, so to speak, and be left destitute of any power to accomplish anything.

      For whatever reason, true priesthood appears to only have power when there is 100% sincerity and humility present and there is nothing of a compulsive or coercive nature to it.

      So, the very act of you saying “prove it to me”, which is another way of saying “cause me to be compelled”, would entirely gut the whole transaction of any power.

      Perhaps a time will come in your life when you will have a sincere and humble desire to obtain a spiritual connection with higher dimensions of your consciousness. The potential is within all of us for this and it can be developed and mastered as a type of 6th sense. Maybe then you will see and know for yourself that I am not so crazy and irrational as you think.

    • commented 2016-03-02 17:24:27 -0500
      Show me tangible, repeatable evidence…and I will BELIEVE!

      But no, that is not possible. I ‘feel’, therefore it is. That is an insult to our species…as religious cults continue to propagate. I’ll be waiting. crickets chirping. ‘Spiritual Realities’ is an oxymoron in it’s entirety. .

    • commented 2016-03-02 16:47:21 -0500
      Nice to hear from you again Ally….

      Spiritual things are just as tangible as the scientific facts you wrongly claim that I deny. I am not in a position where I have to deny any scientific facts and I am also completely at liberty to examine and speak of spiritual realities as well.

      Perhaps you have not exposed yourself much to how scientists are venturing deeper into quantum mechanics and the science of raw human consciousness. As they continue to make progress in these fascinating fields there will be vindication of the many awesome capabilities we have as human beings that spiritual traditions such as mine give you access to.

      I have had several experiences in my life that there is no way the science we have so far today can explain. But, to me, they were definite real experiences. I have felt the power of love and priesthood work through me to heal people. It is one of the gifts I have and I have no idea how it works but I have seen it work several times. And, it isn’t exclusive to just Mormons. It is a power that sincere and good people can acquire through pursuing a path of spiritual mastery.

      I even participated in a gay man being healed and turning his life around and getting married and starting a family. My friendship with this person began at my work place where I was just a peon and he was my manager. He harassed me a lot and referred to me as his “little Mormon homosexual”. I just tolerated his abuse and simply felt sorry for him. One time he even attempted to physically rape me after hours when everyone else had left and he had me trapped. I could have pressed charges and sued him but I didn’t choose that route. I totally forgave him and let him know that he was not going to define who I was. Fortunately, I found work elsewhere and was free of that awful situation. It wasn’t until years later I bumped into him by chance and when he saw and recognized me he became very excited and wanted me to know that he had turned his life around and gotten married and had a family. I could tell that in some way I gave him both outlet and access to something he needed to get back in control of his life. I gave him forgiveness and love and I patiently and kindly stood my ground instead of allowing someone else’s taunting to define me.

      Human beings are incredible and can do incredible things, things that science cannot explain. I am the least bit ashamed of having dedicated a good part of my life to master things in the spiritual realm. They are real whether you believe them or not.

    • commented 2016-03-02 16:32:08 -0500
      It is difficult to have intelligent conversation with someone bound to mythology and fable. It’s a never-ending conversation of imagination. They don’t speak ‘knowledge’, they speak ‘imagination’. You’re wasting your time with this one.

    • commented 2016-03-02 16:29:03 -0500
      Stuart said:
      “… having sampled some of your other posts, it is rather apparent you hate and scapegoat LGBT people because you are a brainwashed useful idiot of the evil con men you wickedly idol-worship. Now go kill yourself. It’s only through self-afflicted “Blood Atonement” that you will be forgiven for being an evil Nazi lackey of the Koch brothers and other filthy-rich partners of your corrupt leaders.”

      I have genuine love and concern for those who are LGBT and they are not my scapegoat for anything.

      As for the “blood atonement” doctrine you are making a reference to, this wasn’t meant to be something that actually physically puts someone to death in the flesh. No religious group has any power over someone’s physical life. This is a civic matter entirely. There are many individuals who are doing exactly what the doctrine of blood atonement refers to and that is self inflicted spiritual capital punishment. This is exactly what many people who choose to be gay are doing when they resign their membership in the church. They are cutting off their church membership which also carries with it the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is also known as the “breath of life”, only it is referring to their spiritual life.

      So, yes, those who have chosen to identify them self as a gay person should do exactly what the doctrine of the blood atonement outlines, when it is properly understood, which means to surrender their spiritual life as a member of the Mormon church by resigning. If they do not resign then it becomes the responsibility of the ecclesiastical leaders to hold a trial and proceed to excommunicate them if they do not repent.

    • commented 2016-03-02 16:16:48 -0500
      Thanks for you input, Jayzon. But having sampled some of your other posts, it is rather apparent you hate and scapegoat LGBT people because you are a brainwashed useful idiot of the evil con men you wickedly idol-worship. Now go kill yourself. It’s only through self-afflicted “Blood Atonement” that you will be forgiven for being an evil Nazi lackey of the Koch brothers and other filthy-rich partners of your corrupt leaders.

    • commented 2016-03-02 15:06:50 -0500
      Stewart,

      Having sampled some of your other posts, it is rather apparent you hate the Mormon church. You go on and on in vengeful tirades against its leadership as if they are having a “get off” on seeing the lives of LGBT people destroyed. From my point of view I see what you are doing as dishonest at best. The only beings out there enjoying a “get off” are the ones who are using LGBT people as a battering ram to stir up hatred against its competitors. And, I suspect at the upper echelon of the LGBT lobby they delight in every tragedy that will help them destroy what they actually want to destroy. To these people the LGBT are just canon fodder.

      Your flimsy attempt to draw up an analogy to say Mormonism doesn’t exist is ludicrous. It makes me think you have not given any serious or sincere attention to what I have written. Mormons aren’t saying homosexuality doesn’t exits, it is just that according to our laws it is something that should not exist in our church. And, it is drawing the line to allow people who have same-sex attraction to come in and be a Mormon if they choose, so long as they maintain a repentant posture regarding their condition.

      Mormonism is a very small minority in the world and it is one of only a few religions that comes directly from a revealed set of laws it is to be governed by. Mormons are not in a position to just kowtow to popular opinion. If the gays want respect in the world then they should also grant the Mormon church to have integrity to is God and the laws they have covenanted to have fidelity to.

    • commented 2016-03-02 14:46:43 -0500
      Being LGB or T are real unchosen and inalterable characteristics of individuals that remain no matter what is believed. It’s real. Religious faith, on the other hand, is always purely fictional and.a sham. Those that claim it are always imposters and either lying charlatans or brainwashed useful idiots. There are real LGBT members of the Mormon Church, for example, but there are no real Mormons in the Mormon Church because believing in Mormonism is always purely delusional. Mormonism isn’t real so there are no real Mormons. Cult deprogramming therapy can often get rid of a religious faith, but not being LGBT. That’s because religious faith is a mental disorder always involving delusion and being LGBT is not a mental disorder at all.

    • commented 2016-03-02 12:51:52 -0500
      Brittany said:
      “Jason, is heterosexuality something that needs to be cured as well (from another view point?) did you choose to be heterosexual?”

      Common sense answer is:
      If opposite-sex attraction didn’t exist then the human race would have gone extinct a long time ago.

      Would that point of view be a good one for you?

      Brittany said:
      “Can you really see a clearly gay flamboyant man acting like a manly man leading a straight-married life to a woman? If he chose to, do you think he would be being honest to himself, to his wife, with God, being honest at all?”

      As far as non-Mormon people go, the flamboyant man is free to do as he pleases. He is under no covenant with God to uphold any particular set of laws. I am only addressing those who wish to have involvement in good standing in the Mormon church. It would be up to him the extent to which he would attempt to push his way out of his condition. If he lied to a woman about his condition and married her this would be unfair. But, if he was totally honest with her and she loved and respected him anyway, which is entirely possible, I don’t think it is beyond the realm of possibility that he could honestly garner a life worth living. I have a dear friend who became a quadraplegic in a tragic accident. But, he was still able to be married to a beautiful and choice woman. Disabilities should not define when faith and love can overcome all such obsticles.

      Brittany said:
      “I believe that God has a place in his plan for everyone, however they identify.”

      Morminism isn’t the only plan available.
      It is just one of many mansions, so to speak, available.

      Mormons are not saying non-Mormons have to stop being gay. We are just saying that the laws of God we are responsible to abide in the governance of our spiritual society deems homosexuality on the same level as adultery and that they are offenses which forfeit your rights and privileges within that society.

      Earlier I gave reasons why there are such strict laws pertaining to proper order in the family. This is because in a Patriarchal society the governing duties are organized onto the family structure so that there is no need for a big-government nanny-state that takes away individual liberties.

      The Kingdom of God is one where all of its citizens are sovereigns completely unfettered by devices of force that requires them to give homage to an all-powerful state. Other than your family, there is virtually no other governmental agencies.

      This type of government doesn’t work for everyone and it is never meant to be for everyone. But, it is for some. There are some souls who utterly abhor being enslaved but who would gladly labor and toil so that they could freely, out of true love and charity, consecreate their abundance to the betterment of their fellow man. These souls are a rarity among all the souls of humanity.

      This is why the ancient nation of Israel was so small in comparison to the rest of the world and is why there are only 15 million Mormons compared to 6+ billion people in the world. Active and faithful Mormons are a much smaller minority than the LGBT crowd. Should they really be begruged of having fidelity to the laws and commandments they have covenanted with God to have fidelity to?

      Brittany said:
      “How can it be said that homosexuals aren’t defined by thier sexuality when in the church our sex & roles according to which sex , are highly emphasized, thus man & woman (heterosexual couples) are defined by thier sex & sexuality preference?! “We are not defined by sexual attraction?”—-elder bednar. It doesn’t make sense.”

      Read all of my previous comments and it should make sense. The difference is how the person identifies them self. A person can be someone who experiences same-sex attraction but who chooses to apply attrition where that is concerned and who faithfully identifies and conducts themself with integrity to what the laws of the Mormon society require. A person doing this is not a gay person.

      A gay person is someone who experiences same-sex attraction and who has crossed the line to chose to identify themself as a homosexual. Such a person is then subject to church discipline which should result in their excommunication if they do not repent. This is why there are no gay people in the Mormon church.

    • commented 2016-03-02 08:54:14 -0500
      Amen. May common sense rule.

    • commented 2016-03-02 07:46:30 -0500
      Religion is the pimple on the ass of society. All this talk about choice and how we should choose your god over science and knowledge. Any choice in the matter of our sexuality is the choice to be honest about who we are. I would never say “I have homosexual attractions.”. I’ll be honest and say I’m gay. The fact that a certain segment of a civil secular society identifies as LGBT is no business of anyone’s. We don’t choose to be gay, just as people who’re straight don’t choose to be straight. We are born with our innate sexuality. It isn’t something that we “wanted to try”, it is a deep seeded attraction to either female or male, both, either, or neither with variations all in between. But as one poster stated, it isn’t bronze age religion, he’s right, Joseph Smith lived in the 1800’s, and that’s when Mormonism came to fruition. BTW, Don’t Mormons think their heaven is on a planet called “Kalob”? Or is that where their god lives?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu4y7x9LRyY
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEj8LqTMIhY
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VKT4hrBTuk

    • commented 2016-03-02 05:13:46 -0500
      Jason, is heterosexuality something that needs to be cured as well (from another view point?) did you choose to be heterosexual? Can you really see a clearly gay flamboyant man acting like a manly man leading a straight-married life to a woman? If he chose to, do you think he would be being honest to himself, to his wife, with God, being honest at all? As God gave us agency, I think he’d want us to be happy with our choices & feel free, as love knows no boundaries. It does not keep record of wrongs. It’s not our place to judge. I think ultimately, we need to feel right with our choices; to simply love God, be kind, serve & love one another & not worry about the rest. . In the end of this life, we will all know the absolute truth. I believe that God has a place in his plan for everyone, however they identify. I don’t agree with elder bednar (I certainly respect him though). How can it be said that homosexuals aren’t defined by thier sexuality when in the church our sex & roles according to which sex , are highly emphasized, thus man & woman (heterosexual couples) are defined by thier sex & sexuality preference?! “We are not defined by sexual attraction?”—-elder bednar. It doesn’t make sense.

    • commented 2016-03-01 23:52:54 -0500
      Dennis,

      I’m glad you feel the way you do. I wouldn’t want to rob anyone of whatever measure of happiness they are experiencing. As you know from being a Mormon there are many levels of glory and happiness that are available to people, whether or not they are faithful Mormons. And, if someone was forced into the Mormon heaven and it wasn’t really in their heart or nature to be there that it would be a hell instead of a heaven.

      Where I draw the line is I don’t like it when people start bashing on any church to change and accommodate the trends in the world as if a church has the right to tell God how things should be. The whole premise upon which the Mormon Church is founded is that it is led and guided by revelation from God and that it is responsible, as is a bride to her husband, to have fidelity as the Bride of Christ. It isn’t the right of society to dictate to churches what is acceptable when those participating in it are doing so of their own free will and choice and they are free to leave if that is their choice.

      You made your choice and you have amicably exited, so far as I can tell, and have endeavored to put your life together, as you say, according to the dictates of your own conscience. I applaud you for having the fortitude to do this instead of trying to impose upon yourself something you knew in your own heart wasn’t for you and that you weren’t going to find it within yourself to change. You made an actual choice and this is why you are finding a level of happiness that even many heterosexual couples do not find.

      My big issue here isn’t so much the gay aspect as it is that people should educate themselves and sincerely and seriously contemplate whatever choices they make in life and be accepting of the consequences of those choices. And, they should be willing to allow others to do likewise.

      Frankly, it really hit a nerve when Ally expressed her sincere wish that the system of governance being organized onto the family structure would die and go away forever.

      Do you share her contempt as well?

    • commented 2016-03-01 23:31:35 -0500
      Ally said:
      “And may it one day ‘rest in peace’ forever.”

      Spoken like a true enemy.

    • commented 2016-03-01 21:17:11 -0500
      Jason, Your overall tone is that being gay is a bad thing- I disagree. It is a normal variation of natural human sexuality that through evolution has occurred since the beginning of time. I am not living a miserable life- that was when I was attempting to live as a Mormon. My life is full and happy- my partner and I were brought together by God and thank him daily for our union. My family is just as valid as yours and we have much to contribute to society. Of course you disagree with me and that is your right, but there is no sorrow, confusion, pain, dysfunction, etc. in my life.

    • commented 2016-03-01 21:03:08 -0500
      And may it one day ‘rest in peace’ forever.

    • commented 2016-03-01 20:24:54 -0500
      Ally said:
      “And that’s what I believe religion does “bring sorrow, confusion, pain, dysfunction, etc.”

      Corrupted religion and people who fail to live up to its high standards, or who adhere to no standards, is where those things come from.

      I hope you are not saying sorrow, confusion, pain, dysfunction, etc. would go away if someone waved a magic wand and made all religions go away.

      Ally said:
      “Humanity is ALREADY far more moral than god or made-up doctrines. Enough said. I refuse to cast my pearls before swine. There is hope to escape the talons of religion, but you’ve got to want to see it for it is. Real and beautiful, without the imagination of glory or judgment. Good luck on your path…may you live FREE.”

      Since you brought up freedom, you might be interested in knowing why the God of the Bible proscribes adulterous and homosexual relations. It is actually for political reasons and it all ties back to liberty. What many seem to try and insult as antiquated “bronze age” mentality is actually not so antiquated. It all hinges on distributing the power of government to the heads of households instead of to so many centralized government agencies.

      In short, it all boils down to having a massive big-government program where the state assumes all of the duties to govern the people. In this kind of a society the family actually becomes rather irrelevant as a meaningful part of keeping a society stable. Relationships can just come and go and the society does its best to make sure it is always there to pick up the slack where people fail.

      However, having a big-government like this comes at a price. It ultimately takes away people’s individual rights and it enslaves everyone to everyone else. Because the wealth and power becomes centralized it attracts all manner of graft and corruption and eventually people become controlled and oppressed. The very problems of the flaws in human nature become amplified in a way that makes the masses susceptible to a mass catastrophe of some kind. Just having individual people become nameless and person-less numbers to a system is in my opinion a catastrophe. Who wants to be governed by people who don’t actually know you?

      The other side of this political spectrum is to keep the civic governing powers distributed and minimalist so that people are essentially responsible for themselves. Such a society obviously wouldn’t work for people who have very little self-discipline so it isn’t a society for everyone. But, for those who have a more natural inclination to live in a manner of peace and wholesomeness and individual responsibility, they are governed by their head of household. In other words, the family structure is the vast majority of the governing body. This means there is no need for property taxes or income taxes to fund state agencies. There is no need for significant intrusions on your privacy and on decisions in several aspects of our lives that centralized governments encroach into. But, in order for a government of this style to work, the family structure needs to be kept as stable and functional as possible. This is why in this kind of a society the stability of the family unit allows them to live in a non-statist state.

      So, in our day and age we have people who believe turning everything over to the central government is the answer to our woes. The greatest source of resistance to these aims is what little remains of the patriarchal system of addressing the welfare needs in a society. The faster the family model can be destroyed and made obsolete the more quickly people will continue to be accepting of more government intrusion into our individual lives. If the family system totally breaks down then the people will accept more statist powers.

      I see the gay lobby as simply one battering ram, among several, that is being used to try and destroy what is left of the patriarchal family based governing system of Jehovah. And, unfortunately, so far as I am concerned, this will usher in a governing system that I will not consider respectful towards my individual unalienable rights and freedoms.

    • commented 2016-03-01 19:53:20 -0500
      And that’s what I believe religion does “bring sorrow, confusion, pain, dysfunction, etc.” Humanity is ALREADY far more moral than god or made-up doctrines. Enough said. I refuse to cast my pearls before swine. There is hope to escape the talons of religion, but you’ve got to want to see it for it is. Real and beautiful, without the imagination of glory or judgment. Good luck on your path…may you live FREE.

    • commented 2016-03-01 19:46:51 -0500
      Ally said:
      “That’s the problem for theists…they disregard reality to accommodate their imaginations.”

      I didn’t disregard the reality that some people experience same-sex attraction and that some people could even have this condition from their birth conditions.
      Why do you lie where my points are concerned?

      Ally said:
      “Science and thousands of studies prove over and over this reality. Because it doesn’t ‘line up’ with theological thinking, it is disregarded as you said ‘dis-empowering.”

      I didn’t say same-sex attraction is what is dis-empowering.
      You are mixing up my points in a way that I find dishonest.

      Ally said:
      “It is FACT, not a ’disability’. A person cannot help, decide, pray, or any of those into effect, if that is your natural inclination. Yes, you can choose to identify yourself as a Mormon or Christian ‘overcomer’, but that will NOT change the natural urge or wiring your were BORN with.”

      You are telling people that their choices based on faith will have no bearing and that they are hopelessly stuck.
      I am telling you that this is a dis-empowering attitude.
      You can apply this to many aspects of the human condition.
      Your position isn’t so much anti-God as it is anti-faith.

      The purpose of belief in a higher power such as God is to obtain empowerment in order to overcome our natural or animalistic tendencies that bring sorrow, confusion, pain, dysfunction, etc. and to rise above them and receive a new spiritual birth into a manner of living that brings us joy, clarity, happiness and fulfillment.

    • commented 2016-03-01 19:29:50 -0500
      That’s the problem for theists…they disregard reality to accommodate their imaginations. Science and thousands of studies prove over and over this reality. Because it doesn’t ‘line up’ with theological thinking, it is disregarded as you said ‘dis-empowering. It is FACT, not a ’disability’. A person cannot help, decide, pray, or any of those into effect, if that is your natural inclination. Yes, you can choose to identify yourself as a Mormon or Christian ‘overcomer’, but that will NOT change the natural urge or wiring your were BORN with. Sure, choose to not respond to your NORMAL urges/attractions, but that does not change the fact of it’s reality. Choose away.

    • commented 2016-03-01 19:20:06 -0500
      Dennis and Ally,

      As could be predicted, the core of your position is you claim you have no choice. I yet stand by what I said in regard to those who advocate this dis-empowering position.

      Unfortunately, you are apparently trying very hard to smear away the most critical distinction I made that despite your circumstances you are still able to choose how you identify yourself. This is what is judged and is what you are in full control of whether you have been deceived to believe otherwise or not.

      That power to choose is fully available to you to identify yourself as a person who experiences same-sex attraction but who is otherwise determined to be a contributing member of a patriarchal spiritual society like the Mormon religion.

      It isn’t the infirmity that won’t be tolerated it is that you have surrendered your identity and your agency in the matter and that you are in a posture of refusal to seek correction.

    • commented 2016-03-01 18:47:12 -0500
      Jason, While I accept your opinion- it is just that- an opinion no matter how strongly held. I was Mormon half my life, so I know what you are saying very well. I also know that I was born gay and have had absolutely no choice in my sexuality just as you have no choice in yours. This isn’t about being possessed by demons or being brainwashed. I have studied for many years both church doctorine and the scientific and historical aspects of homosexuality. I know with every fiber of my being that this is true. I know what it is to be gay where as most people are saying what it is to be gay without really knowing first hand. Remember: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our [own]1 conscience, and allow all men the same privilege[,] let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    Your rights, your movement.
    Join today:
    Your rights, your movement.
    Join today: